|
Post by Wade Garrett on Apr 21, 2010 22:52:20 GMT -8
Hey all,
I see that Camille has given her childe Lilith access to our private forum. All well and good. Should we also grant access to the Ravnos antitribu Guy (GHEE), or do we not wish to allow him to join us?
|
|
|
Post by Camille on Apr 22, 2010 10:51:40 GMT -8
I think we should, after all we gave access to you before you were formally accepted into the pack. Just so you guys know, I gave her access because that was the precedent that was set with Jack, so I followed suit, I hope that was okay. She really wants to start role playing on the forums and I figured this is probably the best place for her to start.
|
|
|
Post by Silky O'Sullivan on Apr 22, 2010 12:45:15 GMT -8
From my standpoint, I believe that if Lilith wants to prove herself to the pack, then she'll have to do it under her sire's guidance. This is not necessarily the norm in the Sabbat; the childe/sire relationship is not as it would be with the Costello-pigs. I would stress, though, that given our many activities and responsibilities we just don't have a better option.
Ductus Tommy and I were speaking about this, and though I have a different opinion, he will extend a probationary offer to Lilith so long as Camille understands that she is completely responsible for her actions. In this, it may be possible for Camille to work towards changing the sect's mind about her Untrustworthy status. There is no guarantee that it will, however if Lilith proves herself worthy to become a full member of Opus X, then perhaps Bishop Faye and Priscus Robert may take notice.
As for Guy I suggest that if we see him at next Esbat, then perhaps we can discuss what he could add to the pack before deciding to offer a probationary membership.
Speaking of which, have we even done that with Lilith? She may be Camille's childe but she is still a neonate. Did I hear that she was property of the Giovanni before her Embrace? Do we really need that sort of heat? What can she possibly offer us without making this into a charity case?
|
|
|
Post by Camille on Apr 22, 2010 14:05:45 GMT -8
She has much insight into the Giovanni issue, she is a medium, and has knowledge that could be useful. She's survived being their captive for many years but she's no worse off than I was after my embrace. I would have found some other solution to the problem she presented if I didn't think she would make it and in the near future there will be plenty of opportunities for her to prove herself to the pack and the sect.
|
|
|
Post by Silky O'Sullivan on Apr 22, 2010 18:51:36 GMT -8
My question, Camille, is how well did you really turn out after your Embrace? If I recall correctly, your background story indicated that the period after your Embrace did not turn out so well for you. Was Lilith a person of any importance to the Giovanni, or was she just a random blood bag?
I'm following this line of questioning because if Lilith is accepted, even on a probationary basis, it means that her problems become OUR problems, and I'm not satisfied w/the story I've heard thus far, including her Embrace. Her Embrace, from the way it sounds, seems more like charity than a desire to add a strong, well-suited addition to our ranks. Was she a shovel head? What are the details surrounding her Embrace, and what makes her stand out from the other shovelheads? If the Giovanni didn't intend for you to Embrace her, will that come back to bite us in the ass?
|
|
|
Post by Camille on Apr 23, 2010 13:57:44 GMT -8
To address your questions;
My sire was a lying, manipulative, bastard who didn't follow the code he taught me and purposely twisted my mind to turn me into his personal lap dog. At least Lilith will have a sire and a pack (if you'll have her) that can help to teach her the ways of the sect and guide her in the right direction, I think she'll be far better off than I was, though to be completely fair that isn't saying much. This is completely different from my embrace, in my experience when a person survives a lifetime of hardship and does not break under the strain, it leaves them stronger and ready to fight for their beliefs. I look at her history as the perfect preparation for her new life in the Sabbat. I believe she will become a great asset to the Sect because of her history with the Giovanni, she was not a mere blood bag, she is the tether to a ghost that they had protecting their havens. She has learned much about their ways, if nothing else I have taken a useful tool away from them and given that tool the means and the will to fight back against her oppressors. Does anyone have more reason than she does to fight for the freedom the sect offers? She still has much to learn about our ways and occasional missteps are inevitable but I believe in her and will fight to protect her. Leave her out of the pack if you like, she will still live with me and in this way her problems will still affect the group. The biggest problem with the Giovanni is that we can't find them, if they come calling it will be on my turf giving me the advantage and the opportunity to take them out, they may take me out with them but at least I will have died destroying the enemies of the Sect.
|
|
ziggy
New Member
Posts: 22
|
Post by ziggy on Apr 23, 2010 18:00:13 GMT -8
Camille,
I can't believe it is me that has to say this. Stealing the Giovanni's property then subsequently embracing it is not just very poor decision, its damn near a declaration of war. War that you have started not just for the pack, but for the sect as a whole.
In no way am I saying that we should fear the Giovanni. Nor am I saying that you can't start your own personal vendetta against them. Bringing the pack and Sect into it is not just irresponsible but it is also stupid.
By your own words we are doomed to deal with the repercussions of Lilith's embrace if she is a part of the pack or not. I don't know if I am OK with that, but it's fair to say I now fully understand now why Robert hasn't removed your untrustworthy status.
Lilith may be something special to you, but have no doubt she was a tool to the Giovanni and she is just a damaged nuisance to us.
|
|
|
Post by Wade Garrett on Apr 24, 2010 1:28:10 GMT -8
Perhaps this issue should be looked at from another perspective. Yes, Camille was rash in taking Lilith from her environs and embracing her. It will also give us a new tool to use against the Giovanni, who have been threatening us by targeting Camille. And if Lilith is in fact a connection to a ghost that the Giovanni find useful, then we might use that to take away a resource they have grown accustomed to using and turn it against them. This can be seen as Lilith's way of demonstrating her value to the pack and the sect by offering us information about the Giovanni and their practices, information the insular clan has worked hard to keep secret. As for declaring war on the Giovanni, well frankly we're already at war with them, and they have been targeting Camille since before my arrival in the city, so it isn't as if we're making new enemies here.
I propose we view this glass as half full and use this new weapon that has been given to us. If Lilith survives the ordeal of fighting against the Giovanni, that is as good a way to prove herself and make her bones as anything else we do.
|
|
|
Post by Silky O'Sullivan on Apr 24, 2010 8:26:38 GMT -8
Fair enough, Jack. For now I am willing to look at things 'half full' and hope that you are right. I am still terribly concerned about leaping before looking way of Embracing; Sabbat should be shovelheads, and the strongest survive.
Yes, perhaps Lilith is a tool to be used, or perhaps she is unintended mole that the Giovanni can manipulate through this ghostly tether. I am not even remotely knowledgeable about Necromancy or the spirit world, but it would seem that if she is a Medium and is tethered to a ghost, then perhaps the connection is still around? I recall the last Medium affiliated w/our pack through Camille ended up hanging himself. Can anyone explain how this spiritual tether works, is it like a spiritual 6 foot leash or perhaps is Lilith like Steve Martin in All of Me? Is any of this event the cause for Camille's nightmares?
|
|
|
Post by Wade Garrett on Apr 24, 2010 10:58:49 GMT -8
While I have a keen interest in the state of the soul once it shuffles loose the mortal coil, I will have to research how this applies to the actual spiritual laws that govern ghosts. I'll see what I can uncover. In the meantime, Lilith, if you're reading this, now would be an excellent time to chime in and share some of your insights. Camille, if she hasn't been following this conversation, I highly suggest you motivate her to do so and start demonstrating why she is an asset to this pack.
|
|
|
Post by Camille on Apr 24, 2010 12:34:16 GMT -8
((OOC: I've been calling her with no response, I hope she doesn't take the IC questioning of her place in the pack the wrong way and think that we don't want her around. Remember this is her first larp and her first online RP experience as well.))
From what I understand, the ghost just talks to her, it's her tether because it is someone who deeply cared about her when they were alive and couldn't let go after death, this was explained to me by the medium when he was alive. Lilith told me that the Giovanni would do terrible things to her to get the ghost to do what they wanted, that is why we couldn't convince that ghost to help protect our haven, we wouldn't do those things to her. If anything the ghost should be happy that we rescued someone it cared about from the clutches of her abusers and should be doing all it can to prevent them from taking her back. I didn't even know that what happened to the medium was a possibility, I have not studied Necromancy and could not proffer an opinion there. Remember that the ghosts have been tormenting me since before we formed this pack, so I figured that the damage was already done, the Giovanni were already coming after me. I felt my options were slim either, cut my losses, kill her and try to find a way to take them out before they take me out, or allow her to become a weapon against the ones who tormented her. I was screwed either way, if I killed her they would be pissed that I destroyed their property, if I didn't embrace her they would try to reclaim their property, at least now she will have the means and the will to help us fight against them. Part of my reasoning was that if she is part of the pack then she'll participate in the Vaulderie and become bound to the pack, thus making her more loyal to us, right now she's only bound to me as her sire. You are free to question her about this and use your telepathy to confirm the truth in her words, I have complete faith that she has no intentions of betraying us.
Oh, and one more thing... Given the circumstances, what would you have done in my shoes? Would you prefer me to have taken her back to the Giovanni and asked them to forget that my pack took her in the first place? Maybe I should have just killed her, or simply stopped feeding her blood and let her crumble into dust. Maybe I should have allowed her to remain a ghoul, basically a sitting duck for when the Giovanni come calling. I felt that my actions were the most HONORABLE thing I could do, so I followed my PATH and did what I thought was best given the circumstances. I didn't simply wake up one evening and decide that I wanted to make a childe tonight, I thought long and hard about it, it wasn't a rash decision. I was dealt a shitty hand on this one, I chose the option that seemed to have the best outcome, for myself, the pack, and Lilith.
Please tell me how you could have done sooooo much better.
|
|
|
Post by Wade Garrett on Apr 24, 2010 13:55:44 GMT -8
Camille, I was with you right up until that last paragraph. You had explained your situation, showed where your logic came from, and made a decent case for your actions.
Then you changed your tone and decided to get all defensive again. Silky and Ziggy had voiced their concerns, which were not without merit given what they knew at the time, and I played Devil's Advocate on your behalf. Silky responded somewhat favorably to my point of view, indicated he was willing to give Lilith a chance, and had shifted his line of questioning to tactical concerns and long-term planning for dealing with the Giovanni.
Yet even after the argument had visibly abated you felt the need to begin lashing out. That right there is why you keep hitting walls with the rest of the sect in the city. You don't know how to quit when you're ahead or walk away when others are backing down. It's going to get you killed at some point, and it's certainly not helping here.
As far as the actual statements you used, where in the Path of Honorable Accord does it dictate the actions you've chosen? Since joining this pack I've made a point of studying the Paths you all follow, the better to understand all of your core values. My own layman's studies have shown me that Honorable Accord sees mortals as tools to be used, nothing more. You have done considerably more here.
|
|
|
Post by Camille on Apr 24, 2010 20:12:33 GMT -8
No, I actually wanted to know what the rest of you would have done in my shoes. Not aiming for defensive, asking for input. There have been a couple of dissenting voices out there and if they have a better course of action I'd love to hear it, Silky already gave me his response.
As for my path and what it dictates, a follower of my path must always keep honor foremost in her mind, cannot act rashly or in haste; she must always be aware of the nature and consequences of her actions. She must hold onto courage and discipline at all times while seeking to dispense justice and fairness. The true follower of the path of honorable accord puts duty before personal matters and is willing to fight and die, for her cause.
I did not act rashly or in haste, in fact I spent much time and deliberation on this decision (I discussed it with Hathath several times right after we acquired the girl) and feel I have acted logically, fairly, and justly. I am aware of the nature and potential consequences of my actions and I stand ready to take whatever comes as a result. I felt that the likely reward far outweighs the (in my view) unlikely possibility that the consequences will be any worse than they were before I embraced the girl. I seek to dispense justice to the Giovanni, I think it will be rather poetic, that their used and abused tool will help to bring about their destruction. There is no mercy in my action, or sentiment for that matter, it was purely a matter of calculated rational choice.
If you lot feel that my progeny is too much of a liability to the pack then so be it, we will gladly leave the pack and hole up in my comfy new Haven until the Giovanni either kill us or die trying. If you all think you'd be better off without Lilith and I, just say the word and I'll be gone, it's not like I haven't left a pack before. This isn't me threatening to leave, simply stating that I'll go if you all want me too.
|
|
|
Post by Silky O'Sullivan on Apr 24, 2010 22:35:15 GMT -8
How like you, Camille, to stand on your supposed laurels in defiance of our seemingly despotic rule which always seems to come down so harshly on you. How very Maid of Orléans of you. You, who trickles out information to us in the tiniest drops, hidden away in the longest of books. Why do you do that, anyway? Is it a tactical advantage, so that you can look down on us and demand an apology like a thunderclap from Zeus? I wonder, if you were not in this world, would the world stop revolving?
You mention Hathath. Hathath?? Are you serious, woman?!? The same Hathath that wanted to die and begged you to kill him, that allowed himself to die by your hand in a ridiculous Monomacy challenge? That pathetic fool; you expect me to believe anything he would have said or done, as if it lends any sort of weight?
I don't doubt that you seek to war against the Giovanni, for it is a war that you've waged against them since before the formation of Opus X. The sect is at war with them, I understand, but what you seem to fail to grasp time and again is that you act without any mind to the consequences for your pack. You're so quick to take offense at our pointed questions. Forgive us for playing the game of catch-up, but we didn't have a clue that you intended to Embrace some Giovanni property and expect us to welcome her with open arms. You've been sitting on her for how long? Since before the formation of Opus X. That sort of information would have been helpful at some point MAYBE!?!?! I thought we were a pack, Camille, and I don't recall when that would entail such individuality. Last I remember, we act after discussion and in a calculated, intelligent manner; or have you forgotten the last month or so and everything we've done to date as a pack?
The world does not revolve around you, Camille; just thought you should know the truth. I, and your packmates, are not here to blindly follow your lead, or to mindlessly suffer your antics like simpletons. Get over yourself. As I've said previously, I'm willing to see this through despite your mouthiness, and I'm sure everyone else is, too. Whether we like it or not you've dropped this "gift" on our doorstep and now its our problem. Hopefully Lilith will prove to be an asset for the us and the sect, but don't start wagging your tail just yet.
What other information have you withheld from us that we should know? I think we would all like to know more about Lilith, now that she is a vampire. And what of this spirit that is tethered to her, can we use it to our advantage?
|
|
|
Post by Camille on Apr 24, 2010 23:21:20 GMT -8
((OOC: I mentioned this in IC pack meetings, in fact I looked for input from you guys at those pack meetings, you can't expect me to get everything we talk about in our in person pack meetings in writing. I told you all about this girl when we were forming the pack because the Giovanni ghost problem was the reason I had to abandon the Island, I didn't go into a lot of detail because I was trying to keep unnecessary details to a minimum. I told you about her again when I was thinking about embracing her, I brought Jamie with to a pack meeting to discuss the possibilities and one of you helped make the Character sheet. Don't tell me that was all OOC because plenty of stuff happens IC in those pack meetings.))
You speak of things you know nothing about, kind of like when you spoke of my motivation to embrace my progeny, I tell you all everything I think is useful or pertinent. I thought you all were saying I should shut my mouth more often, not tell you every inconsequential detail of my life. I even talked with you guys about embracing this girl before hand. That's it, I'm leaving, I won't be on the boards any more and I'll tell Lilith to stay out as well. Have fun with your plans to destroy the demon and take Toledo. Good luck to you all. If you want me back you know how to get in touch with me, I like this pack a lot but I refuse to take his shit any more. You're right, the world doesn't revolve around me, I've just been offering to dedicate ALL of my influences and resources to the pack's interests every time they are needed. I've given my all to this pack, I won't be doing that any more.
|
|