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Post by The One Rob on Mar 12, 2010 1:26:09 GMT -8
Ladies and gentlemen,
I have no wish to interrupt your discourse and would very much like to see it continue, however I wish to make one point very clear.
When the Archbishop announces that the city is going to participate in a Ritae, declining to participate without requesting permission first is not without it's consequences. There were several that when the Ritae started attempted to fade into the background and leave. None of the five's departure went unnoticed, nor did their destinations while they were still within the vicinity of the Esbat.
As the city is still acclimatising to the new way of doing things, he has chosen to be lenient when he deals with that particular issue. I caution you all however, he is not known as a particularly patient or forgiving individual and he will not long suffer fools, and I for one would very much like to avoid any sudden eruptions. I guarantee, you do not know the level of violence and destruction he can and will visit on those that thwart him. He has no interest in what he calls your petty rivalries, but do not make the mistake of treating him the way you do each other.
I have most definitely strayed from the topic at hand, and said more then I originally intended, please feel free to continue.
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stacey
Full Member
Former Archbishop of Detroit
Posts: 111
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Post by stacey on Mar 12, 2010 4:37:53 GMT -8
Wow. Is this still going on? I'll try to keep this professional so that those of you who were brain damaged in your creation rite won't be blinded by foul language...
The ignorance of the whole thing is almost depressing. For those of you who have questioned me, you've been answered. If you choose not to accept the answer, that is a problem you will have to deal with on your own. If you really have a problem with my honor or what I have done for this city, then challenge me. Monomacy is for just such an occasion. If you are not willing to back the words you put against me, then say nothing else save an apology. Where is the honor in baseless accusations and endless prattle? If it was required of me to explain my actions to everyone, then I would have. Those who need explanations have received them or will soon. For the rest of you, your options have been presented. Put up or shut up. Questioning my honor will not be tolerated. Not after what I've done and what I continue to do for this city. That is as straightforward as can be said.
But before I go, I have a few questions to the general audience:
In the months that Detroit has taken in Cainites after the purge of infernalists, how many vaulderies have taken place? If vaulderie is so unbelievably sacred, why so few? (I'd especially like to hear from the priests on that one.) Of the vaulderies that have taken place in a city, how many have you attended? How many have you missed? How many have you not even known about. None here have attended every vaulderie that has happened in the city, so can anyone really throw stones in a very small, very fragile glass house?
Immediately after the vaulderie in question, how many of you were bonded by blood to an Infernalist who was, by his demonic influence, not bound to you in return? How many of you are still bound by blood to one or more Infernalists who are similarly unbound in return? How many of you are currently under the influence of a demon, though unknowingly and only marginally at this point, because of the control you've given over to a Cainite who has sold himself into that demon's servitude? (Here's a hint: If you participated in the last vaulderie, all these apply to you.) How many of you, in a small, but important way can be considered by the Sabbat, and more dangerously by the Inquisition, to be Infernalists or pawns of Infernalists in every sense of the concept: magically, theoretically, practically, and religiously? (Here's the same hint: If you participated in the last vaulderie, all these apply to you.)
Carefully considering the previous set of questions, how many of you still have questions as to why 90 percent of Detroit was destroyed in the recent Infernalist Purge?
And lastly...(I have to cut loose here and let Stacey be Stacey) How fucking petty and shortsighted are you witless cunts to try to bring this up as a question of honor over not being at one mother fucking vaulderie? Are you actively trying to distract us from priorities in the city or just so incompetently myopic that you see something you don't understand and try to throw yourself into it and hope for the best? (You're more than welcome to choose both.) Because at last gathering while this was being discussed and I was asked about it there was a demon walking around Esbat chatting with people and a major Cam Esbat was being scouted and verified, waiting to be attacked - which didn't happen, despite the capture and interrogation of a Cammy by who? (Since it may have been missed I'll give you the answer: my pack.) So what the fuck? Where was the pride and honor then, you hypocritical cock suckers?
Children, shut the fuck up and let the grown ups handle the adult business. Thanks. Its bad enough that you question me, but then you question my pack? The Bad New Bears? We fucking made this city what it was after the Purge. From the first day the Bad News Bears stepped into this city, it ripped a hole through all the city's enemies, foreign and domestic. We left a trail of blood and dead bodies for each of you to walk behind on this city's path to its current glory. WE ARE DETROIT. So if ritae is so fucking important and can't be missed even once, then each and every one of you will be attending the ritae at the next gathering - whether you volunteer or not, whether you are there or not.
Every pack will be involved.
Every one.
P.S. - Camille, I'm giving you a pass on any directed comments because of using you without your permission several weeks back. Take this opportunity to quit while you're ahead. (But feel free to take this kindness as weakness, cause I have a lot to say and I really want to say it.)
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stacey
Full Member
Former Archbishop of Detroit
Posts: 111
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Post by stacey on Mar 12, 2010 12:12:04 GMT -8
I modified my last post in case anyone read it previously, but just so everyone was aware, I posted here to let you know it is updated. Read it or don't read it. It will still apply to you. This is your notice.
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Post by Silky O'Sullivan on Mar 12, 2010 14:08:06 GMT -8
To Stacey;
I would just like some clarification concerning my previously posted question to you concerning what was more important than attending the city’s first Vaulderie.
If I understand what you’ve said correctly over the course of multiple posts you decided to abstain from this first city wide Vaulderie for the good of the city and the Sect so that your blood would not mingle with that of infernalists. You also allude to multiple Vaulderies (pack included?) where Infernalist blood is somehow tainting the “blood in a bowl” (do you also abstain from participating in these, as well?). General knowledge that we are threatened by the taint of infernalism is not news in this city and no reason not to participate in the Vaulderie. If you had some sort of specific knowledge of an infernalist(s) in the city and knew that they would be participating in the city wide Vaulderie, then you knowingly exposed the majority of the Sect in the city to the blood of an Infernalist by failing to act to remove that threat, damning us to Vaulderie Russian roulette.
You may spurn my words and spew your venom at me for speaking of the Code of Milan, but we have these statutes in place for a reason. We participate in the Vaulderie so that the bonds of blood unite us in our goals and actions. Statute nine of the Code states that we are tasked to protect one another from the enemies of the Sect and those personal enemies shall remain a personal responsibility, unless they undermine Sect security (in which case, it becomes a Sect matter).
Banter aside, if you knew of an Infernalist infiltrating our Vaulderie it would be a Sect matter and you would have been duty-bound by the Code of Milan to protect your sect mates from the demon blood. If you only had the general knowledge that infernalism taints our city then it is no excuse not to participate in the core ritae of the Vaulderie.
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Post by jacobwesley on Mar 12, 2010 15:28:12 GMT -8
It is, of course, possible that information was not revealed to the sect at the time of the vaulderie so as not to compromise an ongoing invesitgation.
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Post by Camille on Mar 12, 2010 17:42:57 GMT -8
Stacey, you know I don't have any problem with you, we've had this conversation before. You're actually kind of growing on me, strange though it may seem. None of this was directed at you, that's why I made sure to note that I don't think you were in the wrong. I was trying to help your packmate to see things from the laymans point of view. Please remember that to most in this city perception is reality, I was trying to give him an opening to explain that your absence was approved of by anyone who matters, as I am sure was the case. At his aparent defensiveness I noted my curiousity over his reaction, that was all, I don't think I need a "pass" for my curiousity. Why are you guys making such a big deal if you really were in the right? What's the problem? All that needed to be said was that your absence was approved by everyone who matters, in your pack and in the city. That is not exposing your business to the world, it tells anyone who is questioning your absence that there is nothing to worry about. That would be the least dramatic answer to the question. Do you guys like all the drama? It is apparently quite entertaining to many others on this board but I am growing weary of it. Think what you will, I was not intending to offend or accuse, I have noted that several times on this board. As is usual with my interaction with the bad news bears, it doesn't matter what I say because they just get pissed off at everything and basically cuss me out, even when I try to be helpful. This will likely bring another round of insults and colorful language but I don't really give a damn. I would challenge Stacey if I actually suspected him of any wrong doing, I would probably lose because he is kind of a bad ass, but it would be the honorable thing to do so I would. In fact that's one of the things I admire most about Stacey, that he is great in a fight. Doesn't it follow that since I would be honor bound to challenge him if he broke the code of milan, and I didn't challenge him, that means i believe him?
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stacey
Full Member
Former Archbishop of Detroit
Posts: 111
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Post by stacey on Mar 12, 2010 19:39:44 GMT -8
O'Sullivan: First for your clarification. I did not say why I decided to abstain from the vaulderie (which was not the city's first). In fact, I specifically said that it is my business and the business of people far more important than you.
Second: You seem to be under the misunderstanding that what YOU think is important means anything at all to me or anyone else. For your information, you don't decide what is or is not important enough for me to act.
Point blank: You are no one in this city.
When you quit sitting on your dick long enough to get out and do some work in this city on your own, then you can start making your own decisions for you and your pack, but never for me. So understand that well. How I work is my business and it has done pretty well for the city so far. As you stated, there was a general knowledge that Infernalists plagued the city. But you can't actually blame me for the city's Cainites falling under demonic influence. I'm not the one that called for the vaulderie. The Archbishop did. If you are going to arbitrarily decide for the city that there needs to be someone "blamed" for this, then the person to "blame" is the Archbishop. Feel free to take that up with him. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to let you know how he feels about you questioning his decision and blaming him for exposing the city to the demonic influence - because yes, we all knew it was here. Otherwise, I refer you YET AGAIN to the best advice you're not taking: Shut the fuck up.
Your flawed logic is infantile, as is your black or white viewpoint. Your rants are pointless and you can't see beyond the scope of your own immediate surroundings. You're as naive as a freshly sprouted shovelhead and I'd expect more from someone that says they aren't new to the Sabbat. I clearly gave you more credit than you deserve. And you are delusional if you think you can use the Code of Milan against me by picking and choosing which edicts to follow, which to ignore, and which to deliberately misinterpret. Did you just fall off the potato truck? In your haste to try to show off to the city just how well you studied your Code of Milan, you've gotten ahead of yourself and stumbled. You're like the annoying nerdy kid in grade school who always sits in the front of the class right in front of the teacher and wants to answer every fucking question cause he thinks he is impressing people, when its really just pissing people off. In your childish tantrum you've assumed that I've broken oh so many codes and haven't once stopped to consider the possibility that I've carefully followed each and every one of them. You're too heavy handed to understand subtlety and finesse. You brought up statute IX of the Code of Milan, but I didn't see you protecting me (or anyone else) from the demon that was walking through Esbat. You want to throw around accusations of breaking the Code of Milan, then I have a list a mile long for you and everyone else in this city. Its a pointless childish exercise and you just keep on going at it. But as you consider how and in what of the infinite ways a Cainite can adhere to statue IX, refer back to the first Infernalist Purge that occured here in Detroit just a few months ago and let me ask you this: Who is going to protect the city from demons and Infernalists if everyone in the city is all love struck and bound to them?
How I work is far beyond you, O'Sullivan.
This is why my honor is not in question. Not from you or anyone else. I've been Initiated, Blessed, Devoted, Enriched, and Battle-Scarred. I've been declared Gangsta and Resourceful by much better Cainites than you. And above all, I'm Feared, Really Feared, Really Fucking Feared, and Really Mother Fucking Feared. So respect that if you respect nothing else, you who are so fond of Sabbat tradition. I've earned my place here. Have you?
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stacey
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Former Archbishop of Detroit
Posts: 111
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Post by stacey on Mar 12, 2010 20:39:00 GMT -8
Camille:
The reason it is such a big deal is because like every pack in the city, the Bad News Bears has worked really hard to ensure that every Cainite in the city is safe. But it is not an exaggeration to say that we have been more effective than most in getting results and I'd be happy to match any pack accolade for accolade if necessary. (And that would be without including the work we've done for this city quietly.) To question us over something so petty by people so ignorant of the situation and unproven in this city at a time when the same people are saying we are supposed to be pulling together as a sect and a city is a grave insult. It cannot be tolerated and won't be.
Not by us.
Do we like drama? No. Not in the fag hag, high-school emo way that it is being implied. But what makes the Bad News Bears what we are is our passion. We rage for our sect and our city. We throw ourselves into impossible odds and unlikely scenarios out of pure devotion to our Cainites. We have a fire in us for the welfare of the Sabbat and the city of Detroit that is barely contained - if at all - and when someone dares to come at us questioning our honor and our commitment they get burned. For fuck's sake, while the whole city was wrapped up in Infernalism, we were out pulling double duty bagging and tagging Camarilla in another city. And I can't remember the last time anyone made a plan against them or killed one or even talked about one. Unless anyone forgot, they are still our number one threat...
I did say that those who needed to know of my actions knew or would know. And I thought that to be the end of it. So much so that I did not even bother to check back to this post. But then Wes had to get me on the phone and tell me that shit was still being thrown our way - that my answer was not sufficient for some people. Jacob even explained for me, despite the fact that he did not know anything about my decision - but did a spot on job of figuring it out all on his own. Because he had faith in me and he knew there was a reason. When approaching the situation from that angle, figuring it out was probably not that difficult. But like most do, several immediately assume the worst out of ignorance or a chance to try to take me on. Bad decision. So still there was questioning. And in turn there was a response. You mess with fire and you get what you get. I have absolutely no sympathy for those that end up in the burn unit because of it.
Does the city need to be bonded together? I said so in the beginning, yes. Multiple times. You noted that yourself. Why did I say that in the beginning? Why haven't I said it lately? Because everyone who entered the city after the Infernalist Purge was untouched by the demon running around Detroit. All the Infernalists had been slain and the city had been wiped clean. The bonding would have been pure and good. But despite my advice weeks, months went by without a full city-wide vaulderie (there were partials here and there - which I attended) but you will note that at a certain point, I stopped asking. Once the demon had begun to turn Cainites to his cause and tainted the blood of the city, my desire to push for a city-wide vaulderie had vanished. The Archbishop called for one and that's his right and will. We aren't particularly damaged by it so long as we continue rooting out all of the Infernalists, but there's no need for me to push for one. And there's definitely no need for me to voluntarily bond myself closer to the servant of a demon when I know one is there. Jeremy and Katerina will attest to the fact that I knew of Malak's Infernalism before it was proven. I told them as much when they were both questioned and doubted (which no one has yet apologized to them for) to let them know that I did not question or doubt them. I told them they were right. That they should not doubt themselves. The powers of a demon are vast and varied, but his greatest weapon and strongest ally is sowing doubt and mistrust among us. Special circumstances are absolutely necessary.
And I say all this not to try to explain myself because the fact is that despite all of the above, which is more than enough reason to justify my actions - none of it has anything to do with the actual reason I was not at the vaulderie. It is simply context to note that even if I had not had a separate reason (a reason that will remain between me and a select few), my absense - or that of anyone else - is more than understandable.
So despite the entertainment provided, and Robert's wish for it to continue, I think the issue is settled. However, I'm more than happy to transition on to a new discussion: Did anyone ascertain whether Malak had been burning down those bookstores? Because the Black Hand asked for us to find the arsonist and I don't know if anyone actually got around to doing that...
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Post by jacobwesley on Mar 12, 2010 21:37:34 GMT -8
In the end, the whole fucking point of blood in a bowl is faith in your packmates, and ultimately faith in the sect. If you do not put faith in your fellow cainites, then what is the fucking point? On some level the word of my trusted brother has to be good enough. The benefit of the doubt must be given. the results of ritae must be trusted. The danger to the city is not the ranting of fucking Jacob Wesley. The danger to the city is that in our fevor to be the milan police, we lose the spirit of the ritae in defernece to the form. Hence my statement:"Fuck good sense. Fuck manners. Its blood in a bowl that separates man from dogs." I am not saying "there is no reason to ever miss a rite" I am saying that the spirit of the vaulderie is more important than saying "praise caine" before you put your blood in.
Yes the code says to monitor to watch, but so far it seems people go well beyond that. They twist words with such deft grimjibbery that lawyers weep so that they might create an inference of harm or hypocrisy. They pick quotes like a a fucking movie poster picks words from a review, and then run and hide behind the "I was just curious." Of course context is meaningless, and people compare apples and oranges and get hypocrisy. They are looking to advance themselves at the expense of others, and that is the conduct I find so divisive. I don't give a fuck if anyone likes me, but I do give a fuck if they are selling me out when the shit drops to give themselves a springboard for status. When I see a question that serves no purpose -where clearly the person asking cannot possibly have all the information at hand- then I can only conceive that the intention is not to gather meaningful information, but to somehow discredit my packmate.
Which brings us to my reaction to your jibe. How can your statement about what I said in another conversation, Camille, be read as anything but snarky? You intimate you were giving me an opportunity to defend my pack mate? Have your read what you said? To what purpose? What positive benefit could that post possibly have except to create an out of context grounds for questioning my integrity and consistency? How do you expect me to react when you are throwing words in my face, loudly calling attention to that act by stating you are not. Fuck, just say "Jacob, you are being a hypocrite." Or accept that my statements were made in two entirely different contexts, and move on.
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Post by Wade Garrett on Mar 12, 2010 23:47:46 GMT -8
Fascinating. It seems to me that every principal member of this debate has quite a lot to say. At this point, everyone seems to be on the verge of cycling through their arguments if this continues any further. Questions have been asked, answers have been given.
Mr. O'Sullivan, from this outsider's perspective it appears you have three options. 1) Accept Stacey at his word and let the matter drop. 2) Observe the Code of Milan and spy on Stacey until the truth is revealed to your satisfaction. 3) Decide you don't care about the reasons behind it, make up your mind that he has violated the tenets of the Code, and challenge Stacey to Monomacy. I look forward to seeing what you decide on the matter.
So where does this go on from here? Is Mr. Wesley going to fight with Camille? Is Stacey going to fight Mr. O'Sullivan? Are people going to let this go? Or is another round of of overly-lengthy arguements and threats about to begin? Or perhaps this can all be resolved by the various primaries in this conversation participating in a Vaulderie? That might be a poetic ending to this discussion.
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thesteve
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Assistant Storyteller/Turbo-Charged, Cow-Pounding, Sexual Powerhouse!!!
Posts: 125
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Post by thesteve on Mar 13, 2010 0:22:48 GMT -8
I like your attitude, Loveless!
-Church
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Post by Camille on Mar 13, 2010 0:48:46 GMT -8
Whatever, it's not really my problem because I participated in the Vaulderie, I trusted in my fellow Cainites enough to do that, and now I trust that our leaders will do what's best for the Sect with regards to those who did not participate. It's as simple as that. I had Faith in the sect, those who didn't participate in the Vaulderie did not. I will not simply shut up and believe what someone says just because they are in a position of power and have a ton of status that they throw in the face of any opposition. I will do and say what I think is right and honorable. If I see anyone do something that I think is wrong, hurts the sect, hurts my pack, breaks the code of milan, etc. then I will deal with them. Remember what happened to Hathath when he proved himself to be dishonorable by breaking the code of milan and taking actions that harmed the sect and our pack? For those who weren't there, I challenged him to Monomacy, and I killed him. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done because he and I were quite close but it had to be done, so I did. For the good of our pack, the sect, and our city.
Question, how can one be "loud" in text? By regularly using caps lock? By using lots of vulgar language? By writing really long posts that resemble a wall of text? In that case am I really the loudest one on this board? In text, tone is inferred by the reader, unless the one posting gives some adjective like "snarky" to describe the tone behind the words. The fact that you inferred that from my text is not my fault or my problem, it is your interpretation, not my meaning. I mentioned that, several times. I might note that I've been really trying to be polite and as inoffensive as I can be, and yet, as usual, as I expected and predicted, I got nothing but insults from Stacey and Jacob, again.
I don't even know where to start with the rest of your broken logic so I am dropping the subject because it's not worth my time and effort. Our leaders will deal with this matter however they see fit soon enough, of that I am certain. Why? Because I have faith.
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stacey
Full Member
Former Archbishop of Detroit
Posts: 111
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Post by stacey on Mar 13, 2010 9:36:27 GMT -8
Loveless: James West here. Like Church, I approve greatly of your assesment. Very to the point. And the ending to this will be ritae. But not vaulderie. If you give a child what it wants whenever it screams it only learns to scream every time it wants something. But we will have ritae. One that will involve all of the city. And unfortunately the issue couldn't end there, even with a lovely transition to a different subject that I offered. And of course, who starts up another round of of overly-lengthy arguements and threats? Our city whine afficionado, Camille... Camille: Really, Camille? Really? I might note that I've been really trying to be polite and as inoffensive as I can be, and yet, as usual, as I expected and predicted, I got nothing but insults from Stacey... So I write an entire post to you, personally, in which I freely give you answers to the questions you ask, and an explanation that you are not entitled to, one without any harsh language, name calling, or even argument - and what you take from that post is: " I got nothing but insults from Stacey..." REALLY?!?Okay, so maybe you are as dumb as you look, you pasty-faced, cum-chewing cow. Did you even read the fucking post I wrote or did you just skip it and automatically assume that since it came from me that it just had to be jam-packed full of insulty goodness and curse wordy funtimes? And you wonder why you're treated the way you are. Its almost frustrating how stupid you are. And to top it all off you then try to passive-aggressive city leaders to "do something" because you have "faith" - as though your own personal beliefs had any more value to their decision making than a pile of dogshit left on someone's doorstep. Do you read any of these posts?!? I believe the Archbishop's templar already said that it would be handled. Was his word not good enough for you? No, apparently not. Not when you have the good sense to treat our city leaders like children on a playground that can be bullied with your opinion of them. I will not simply shut up and believe what someone says just because they are in a position of power and have a ton of status that they throw in the face of any opposition. The status that I have earned is the measure of respect that YOUR leaders have demanded that you show me. It has never been asked for and in some cases, I have even turned down the honor of being granted status. I understand you view and treat your leaders like little kids and have no respect for their ability to run a city without your approval, but they have validated the work and dedication I have had for this city in the tradition afforded to all Sabbat leaders. By disregarding that you have disregarded the sect. Honestly, it really is hard to believe you can be THIS stupid... What a pedantic cunt...
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Post by Wade Garrett on Mar 13, 2010 12:04:06 GMT -8
I see. Another round of overly-lengthy arguments and threats it is. I look forward to seeing how this plays out at the coming Esbat. However, I do trust that it will not force the city's actual problems to take a back seat to this. That would change this melodrama from comedic to tragic.
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Post by The One Rob on Mar 13, 2010 12:29:25 GMT -8
I look forward to seeing how this plays out at the coming Esbat. A sentiment you are not alone in, I assure you. However, I do trust that it will not force the city's actual problems to take a back seat to this. That would change this melodrama from comedic to tragic. Heating complacent blood is rarely a bad thing.
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